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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Grey Stormshadow
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Posted - 2011.02.16 12:38:00 -
[1]
It would be about time to see major security upgrade to the game client and swift removal of bots and their assets from the game.
Every day this game goes downhill because all the ignorance and tolerance towards the botters. If you (ccp management) really think that 1 to few day bans will stop the botters from doing their stuff again, you are either stupid (which I dont believe) or extremly hilarious (more likely).
If you seriously think that entire EvE's playerbase will tolerate this bullcrap propaganda about fighting the RMT without serious punishments and removal of all the botters, you are most likely reaching the end of that road.
The public awarness of this issue is growing every day and major news outlets have taken the issue to their own hands. It isn't long way to the point where general reputation and reviews of the game start to melt down also.
It is funny how often it is hard act before it _was_ too late. Hopefully this doesnt turn into one of those moments too.
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Grey Stormshadow
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Posted - 2011.02.21 22:04:00 -
[2]
Reading this thread and seeing my favorite game going down to drain really makes me sad.
It seems that all important opinnions, reasons and statements have been said on the posts above already and there is nothing much we can add. It would be good time to start hearing some response and real actions from CCP.
With real actions I mean something what will permanently remove most of the bots from this game - with and without of RMT connections.
To put lil more weight to this statement I am going to cancel the subscription of all my alt accounts in end of march 2011 if no real community approved actions towards the goals have been started.
I challenge other players in the community to do the same thing and leave only their mains up until this really ****** up situation will be properly fixed.
And finally a small note to CCP management: You really could make good PR with real anti bot campain if you just choose to play your cards well and are ready to fully commit into it.
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Grey Stormshadow
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Posted - 2011.02.23 15:58:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Pr0m Queen
rofl guys, don't you understand the real problem?
riverini and Majesta Empire are a part of Northern Coalition, this whole deal was brought to you by his site that was already mentioned here, and it all is, in fact, part of media campaign against Drone Region Russian Forces that are currently at war with NC that lasts since dawn of times I might add.
Ammount of bots in EVE is annoying, true, but blaming just one party for bot usage is plain idiocy. Whole NC territory is one big blue napfest ideal for botters - why not look there? why not ask some particular individuals, how come they know so much about botting in the fisrt place? nah, that needs too much brain power from your common Joe. In the end it's all just dirty politics and dirty media war tricks
EN24 series of articles about RMT is just boiling with hate against russians, while you can't beat them on battlefield or outsmart them or beat their famous tenacity, you decide to make them evil for the rest of EVE community?
As for people making a lot of isks daily - I can, if I want or need to, farm few billions in a week just by runnig anomalies using my 4 accounts, of course I do it completely manually by myself, using one marauder, carrier and two battleships to simultaneously do two sanctums and two havens. and farming with stuff like motherships will give you even more. in fact, when i actively farm i can make around 300-500kk isk a day, why would anyone need to use bots when you can have this income?
to deal with RMT problem, CCP should start acting against ISK buyers more than against botters, because it's the demand that creates the offer in this case. It's not really cause of bots, I guess bots were created to speed up ISK generation for the GROWING DEMAND of the RMT market. Make no mistake, it's not botters who's creating this problem, it's lazy players who find it easier to buy isk than to farm for it. And if not for PLEX being sold officially, this market would be even bigger, because then all the people who try to fund their EVE adventures by selling PLEXes would just turn to illegal isk sellers. What CCP can also do is to lower PLEX prices a bit, mybe make them 15 days instead of 30 to add more options for people with limited funds that would otherwise (instead of buying PLEX) spend their limited funds on illegal isk. It's just basic economy rules - supply and demand, and I think this is why CCP can't really take any action in current situation. I mean they can do something that would damage EVE greatly or even completely change it, but that would be too much. And there's no way some small simple half-measures can deal with this RMT problem.
So guys, just let CCP do their job and just be happy about that you play in one of most awesome and original MMOs ever created.
No offence but after reading this I clearly see that you haven't read even small parts of the posts in this thread.
The botting is problem of entire 0.0 region. If there have been posts where someone points finger only to Russians, they surely aren't in line with the majority of posts in this thread.
Also it is really interesting way to assume that removing main isk source from isk sellers wouldn't seriously cut down the available isk in RMT market. Instead you offer solution where bots should not be touched and PLEX prices should be lowered even more. Funny part is that bots are the ones that make plex prices go up.
I'm sorry but after reading all posts in this thread I've come to conclusion that anyone who is not willing to get permanetly rid of the bots is either botter or in a position which gets some kind of benefits from people who use bots.
This is of course my personal opinnion and can be flawed. However before judging and throwing me to wolves, make sure you have read the entire thread and made true opinnion of your own.
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Grey Stormshadow
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Posted - 2011.02.28 20:11:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Angel of Night
Originally by: Arnakoz
all I'm trying to say is that bots are already integral to our eve experience and can't be gotten rid of. so why care?..
Really simple and short answer is 'better overall pvp balance, more interesting and appealing 0.0 space, more active community'.
Let's try to stay on the topic again... The first 2 lines above explain in nutshell what the real problem is and the last 2 lines introduce the game without first 2 lines.
Now... we either want to get rid of 1st 2 lines or last 2 lines. How and why are good questions. Market talk and blame game won't take us anywhere.
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Grey Stormshadow
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Posted - 2011.03.02 20:40:00 -
[5]
CCP Sreegs, just wanted to thank you for the constructive replies.
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Grey Stormshadow
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Posted - 2011.03.04 13:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Now that I have some solid dates it made sense to post again.
Are those "solid dates" contained somewhere in your reply?
I don't think I saw any.
It helps to read little more from thread than just last page... friendly hint
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Grey Stormshadow
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Posted - 2011.03.09 11:03:00 -
[7]
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1479579
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Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.12 13:50:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 12/03/2011 13:52:09
Yes... however I bet that if someone would do some real math, the results could easily point to direction where amount of hisec bots would cover their smaller income / bot.
In fact I bet that this is one of the issues where rmt wing / bot operators don't want our attention to turn into.
We got to remember that running bot in hisec is after all, rather safe. How often you see ice/ore miners blown up... Yes hulkageddon is there but if you mine 23/7, losing one ship now and then doesn't change anything on yearly income of one bot.
If you got 5-10 bots mining in some system 23/7 almost every day thru the entire year, there is some serious isk to be made.
It is quite hilarious how some people always point finger only to 0.0, make this a political issue between some alliances or say that it's not that big of a deal... well it is.
I don't know much about bots running combat/courier missions or bots doing market 0.01 pvp, but the ones doing mining have very serious impact on mineral prices.
I can only wonder how big part from this goes to rmt market also.
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Play with the best - die like the rest
starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.13 09:51:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kengutsi Akira
I see we finally scared off the CCP guy... guess I as right when I guessed he's ignore the issue like everyone else.
Welcome to the company dude, now that you know how it works, looks like yer gonna fit right in.
Well I bet they got little better things to do than sit on the forums every day and reply to everything we post here.
...like doing something to fix the actual problem that is.
I can't see how he is ignoring the issue by promising more info to be released during fanfest.
...but perhaps you disagree.
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Play with the best - die like the rest
starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.27 06:16:00 -
[10]
Yep... player driven economy has no place for bots.
What is different in Eve's fight against bots and rmt compared to many other MMOs is that here most people actually do care, because botting and rmt really hurt their own economy in long term.
As long majority of players support the fight against the bots and rmt, we will keep it under control. It is important that botting is openly discussed and that people are aware how some people may try to cheat. It is even more important that all cheaters are reported.
It is really excellent thing that CCP is finally doing something about this issue. I hope that it will continue and that many alliances and corporations will join the fight by having zero tolerance on players who will be found botting or buying/selling isk thru rmt market.
Also information about legal ways to obtain iskies with real world currency should be distributed more efficiently to our new players. Many of them may go to rmt sites just because they don't know what plex is or how it works.
Lets show Eve some love and keep the space clean from cheating scum :)
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Play with the best - die like the rest
starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
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Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.28 22:55:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jack Gilligan
So what was the big announcement at fanfest?
I didn't see any in the news.
Have we been lied to again?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gZm-85JOs
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Play with the best - die like the rest
starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.29 21:03:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 29/03/2011 21:04:33
Originally by: mkmin
Edited by: mkmin on 29/03/2011 19:14:29
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Baihuigau
With their new security initiative their concentrating more on programs interacting with the client so it should lower wrongfull bans based on the miners that afk for those 15 minutes, whats anoying is that based on what the dev said in the presentation their hinting that multiboxing programs are not allowed but have not given a definate answer on it just that they can interepret the eula like they want and give u a warning ban wonder if their going to keep multiboxers in the dark or come out and say whats allowed or not allowed.
Multiboxing is allowed, as long as you control all clients.
Originally by: GM Lelouch
Hello there,
To make a long story short, automation of gameplay is not permitted; players must be manually issuing the commands to control their character(s) at all times.
Our stance on programs such as Synergy and hardware/software combination such as the G15 keyboard is that they can be legitimately used as long as gameplay isn't automated. Synergy allows you to move your mouse cursor to multiple different monitors which are hooked up to different computers and we do not have any qualms with players using the program for this purpose. If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed, but I am not aware of such a functionality with this program. If Synergy is used in conjunction with some other program to automate gameplay, it would not be permitted. G15 "macros" which allow you to group different commands into one keypress are allowed. For example, setting your G1 key to press F1, F2, F3 and so on for you with one key press is allowed (although this specific command is not as useful as it was before now that we have weapon grouping).
An exceedingly complex G15 macro which would effectively automate gameplay, such as mining, without a need for the player to be present at his keyboard would be against the EULA, regardless of whether the player utilizing said macro is sitting at his keyboard at the time!
Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed. In the same vein as what has been stated above, the player must be manually sending the commands; if a program is automating those commands for you, then it would be considered a breach of our EULA.
I hope this clears up this matter.
Best regards,
Senior GM Lelouch
EVE Online Customer Support
Linkage
You didn't see the security vid on fanfest did you? Sreegs said that could change. He has the power to overrule every and all security/anti-cheating decisions previously made by GMs. He said he hasn't decided if boxing software is cheating or not.
edit: I'm not sure if I approve of boxing software or not. It does automate gameplay in a way that gives unfair advantage, even if it does take player oversight. Other utilities that might affect the client directly don't affect gameplay (i.e. fraps.)
Yep... He did mention in a way that it would not be any miracle if some1 got banned from using programs like that.
People surely seem to like the grey area and pushing their boundaries as close to the limit as possible.
So... it's your decission. If you choose to rat 23/7 - be always there to take care of your market orders - link 10 clients and control all with 1 mouse click - mine entire systems dry day after day after day... go ahead. Just don't come here to whine for any support when one day it is time to pay for consequences.
...or actually after 2nd thought - please do come - those tears are the best.
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Play with the best - die like the rest
starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.29 23:20:00 -
[13]
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Baihuigau
I agree that pushes the limits and things like that should be limited, by hope you dont class those that use it to run lets say 3 clients in the same category as someone who runs 5+ clients which is kind of aproaching botting, just because of those players who push things that far, those of us who use it for less clients shouldent be punished as well, multiboxing programs are pretty usefull, maybe have a client restriction as a rule lets say nothing more than 5 clients, then again that would be hard to detect, so its kind of a either u allow it all or nothing, catch 22.
It has to all or nothing, i else you could just use two multibox setups with 5 clients each.
Aye... and to be honest controlling multible clients simultaneously may sound harmless to some, but it can give really unfair advantage against someone who sticks with plain original eve client(s) and controls them separately.
Example 1:
"Player uses external program to control 3 clients simultaneously to move 3 ships from system A to B."
Pros to player: Some time saved, less clicking needed, more convient.
Cons to other players: Very limited.
Comments: Could be converted to ingame feature.
Example 2:
"Player X uses external program to control 3 clients simultaneously to jump on player Y with 3 ships and attack his 3 ships one by one."
Pros to player X: Well synced alpha damage to enemy ship on contact... and thru the fight. Better change to bail from battle if something goes wrong (simultaneous warpout).
Cons to player Y: In time it takes to issue action to all 3 clients the fight is prolly already over. Very marginal change to actually win the fight. Very small change to get more than 1 ship saved from the fight.
Comments: Perhaps the above example isn't really accurate, but would still classify that as automating game play (cheating).
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Play with the best - die like the rest
starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.30 00:05:00 -
[14]
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
People surely seem to like the grey area and pushing their boundaries as close to the limit as possible.
I can't see how it can be a grey area or pushing boundaries, until CCP decides to change their policy/EULA/TOS you are allowed to use multibox setups.
CCPSreegs - Multiboxing
Well the eula states that "3.You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game."
I would say that using 3rd party program to store mouse click on one client window and automatically applying it to random number of other client windows is "macroing". Also if used in PVP/PVE that surely makes it easier to gain items, currency objects, standings and so on... It is also modification of the user interface, as basic interface doesn't allow you to share mouse clicks with other client interfaces...
In other words... would say that using program which distributes mouse movement, clicks and keyboard actions to multible clients is seriously breaking the eula.
...but as I said earlier - people should make their own conclusions but also learn to live with the consequences. "Omg they banned my friend who didnt do anything... right?".
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Play with the best - die like the rest
starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.30 02:51:00 -
[15]
Unfortunately for some people adapting to any kind of boundaries is way too difficult... If there wasn't such people, game developers could truncate big part of the eula to only 3 words; "No cheating allowed". Most of the people would understand what it means, but then there is always that one guy who ignores the 2 first letters and starts living in his own reality. Funniest part is that even they write 10 page eulas, there still is that "one guy" around.
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Play with the best - die like the rest
starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.30 04:24:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kengutsi Akira
Look first at the game you are playing before yelling at ppl about exploiting the grey area
think really hard about that
Well if this was ment for me... I am not yelling and perhaps you want to share bit further where are you trying to head with this comment ?
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Play with the best - die like the rest
starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.04.05 23:12:00 -
[17]
There is rather easy way to make life of (mining) bots much harder...
I know that people are against captcha but if this was implemented to work with the report bot button, it would efficiently stop the bot and also provide data about characters "after report" behauvior to devs...
So... in nutshell the idea is that when some player hits report bot button, reported character gets notification in mail and link to some captcha. The catch is that reported player can not undock or do any market orders before the captcha has been completed.
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Play with the best - die like the rest
starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:47:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Aessoroz
Edited by: Aessoroz on 06/04/2011 13:56:11
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 05/04/2011 23:20:22
Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
There is rather easy way to make life of (mining) bots much harder...
I know that people are against captcha but if this was implemented to work with the report bot button, it would efficiently stop the bot and also provide data about characters "after report" behauvior to devs...
So... in nutshell the idea is that when some player hits report bot button, reported character gets notification in mail and link to some captcha. The catch is that reported player can not undock or do any market orders before the captcha has been completed.
Captcha has been discussed in the past. At this point in time we're not implementing it. That doesn't mean we never would, it just means not at this time. We're going to fight this particular fight using a somewhat standard tried and tested security toolbox in some places and be more creative in others, but at the end of the day we're going to trend the numbers down and the measure of success for ourselves will be a steady downward trend in botting, in botting-related income and in sites offering said bots. Ultimately as an initial salvo we're sending the message that this isn't going to be easy anymore.
:edit: Ultimately this increases our focus on RMT as well
Main reason why captcha's are dumb and useless these days: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/inside-indias-captcha-solving-economy/1835
Yea... everything can be passed with one way or another. The main idea of my suggestion was to provide some method to "lock" reported player to station and prevent market modifications untill player performs some kind of action.
In my suggestion player would get "harmless" mail which would not actually do anything if player was fighting or doing something else in space. The mail would require attention only after he docks to station.
Captcha could as well be replaced with some other thing what requires player attention. It would not be - by any means - a main method to identify or remove botting. Just additional functionality to report bot button which would also halt the bots for a while and give extra data about target behauviour after report has been made.
...but as Sreegs said - it's not on the menu atm so will leave the idea there.
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Play with the best - die like the rest
starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
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